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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.21 12:55:00 -
[1]
Given the fact that CCP is locking and/or moving other threads on this subject so quickly the mods must be botting, the question for CCP is why the hell aren't they DISCUSSING this subject in this thread that they keep relegating to the ghetto?
Want proof of widespread botting? Look at Dotlan. More proof? Go look at ISK for sale websites (and no, I'm not going to link any, Google it for yourself) and you will see that you can get 1 Billion for around $31. Compared to purchasing a GTC and selling two PLEX items which will net you around 700M or so for $35.
Therein lies the problem, the PLEX system is part of the problem and is what is making it easy for botters to run large numbers of accounts as they can be funded entirely by the act of botting itself which allows them to self perpetuate. The botter/ISK seller need not invest a single dime beyond the cost of the client itself.
It is a huge irony that the people who are buying ISK "honestly" (really, there is no moral difference between paying CCP or paying "Russian Drone Bot Hellhole Alliance B" for ISK) are the ones MAKING PLEX ITEMS available for the botters!
The way I see it there are three possible solutions that need to be tried:
1. Get rid of the PLEX items and go back to direct account to account trading of GTC codes (or get rid of any form of RMT entirely). This CCP absolutely won't do even if it can be demonstrated (and it can) that this practice is harming the game economy. The 60 day GTC/PLEX system is what is being exploited and is what has sent this problem spiraling out of control.
2. Implement a system of aggressive behavior monitoring supervised by live GM's. Given the regularity of bot patterns/size of operations, surely a database query can be built that can whittle down a list of possibles for GM's to investigate. Hell, you don't even need to go to that effort, just dedicate some GM's to check out the top 25 most ratted 0.0 systems on Dotlan...
3. A rewrite of client encryption and packet security needs to be done ASAP. There are now bots so advanced multiple ones can run on a single PC due to the fact that the client can be talked to directly by the bot. Clearly this indicates that the security CCP has in the client has been completely breached and is useless. This won't stop bots completely (bots that read pixels on a video screen can't ever be stopped) but it will make running them more inconvenient and expensive for the botters, something that will increase their costs and decrease their numbers.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.21 17:07:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
Originally by: Jack Gilligan 1. Get rid of the PLEX items.
When Hilmar watches us all paying real money to provide the means for other people to cheat-for-free he must laugh his ****ter inside out before going back to count the massive piles of cash he's making.
This is why we need to hold their feet to the fire, not let off the pressure and force CCP to either get rid of RMT entirely OR commit to dedicating the live GM staff resources needed to stop the botters. They can fix the client encryption make automated DB queries, etc, but there need to be people dedicated to this.
One mass banning "Unholy Rage" style won't cut it this time, there needs to be a massive and VISIBLE ongoing effort.
Either this, or CCP acknowledges that the PLEX system is going to COST them more money than it brings in to keep and they get rid of it. Massive bot operations would be a lot harder to start up, run, and continue without their ability to fund themselves entirely from ISK of their own botting...
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.28 13:08:00 -
[3]
Looking at some of the whines going on in other parts of this and other forums (by known botters), might not incursions be used as a weapon to make RMT botting untenable?
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.04 04:47:00 -
[4]
Well, they did one thing, they nerfed the Bot, uhh, drone regions.
Now what they need to do is drop Incursions into every 0.0 constellation east of Geminate and south of Providence...
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.14 15:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 14/02/2011 15:04:40 The EVE24 article is pretty dammning, is proof that XDeath and Solar at the best condone, at worst RUN whole bot networks. There is at least enough there to warrant a thorough investigation of those involved up to and including their senior leadership (ie: anyone in those alliances with director roles) with punishments up to forfeiting Sov and being forced to disband with permabans if it proves to be true.
What is ironic is that the investigation showed by and large the renters in the "Bot Regions", such as IRC, are innocent of botting which is largely done in XDeath/Solar space instead. I'd always assumed that most of the "renter alliances" were shells created by XDeath/Solar to keep their own hands directly clean. Apparently this is not so, the renters exist up there simply so that there are at least some ACTUAL NON BOT PLAYERS living in the drone regions!
What will CCP do? Nothing. Why won't CCP do anything? Greed. They make more money off the bots than they do the non bots. Bot accounts are paid for in ISK for plex codes. A regular subscription nets CCP $15/month (USD). An account paid for by plex nets them $17.50/month (USD). CCP, is an extra $2.50 worth a ruined economy and ****ed off players? It is no accident that serious efforts by CCP against bots (think "Unholy Rage") ENDED when the plex system was put into the game and GTC prices were raised to a premium (the discontinuation of the old 30 and 90 day codes).
CCP is afraid that the demand for plex items (and thus the incentive to buy the 60 day plex GTC) will COLLAPSE if they truly cracked down on bots. I believe that they would, the whole plex market in Jita is being supported by the buy orders of botters.
CCP can get away with this as long as people don't notice what is going on. But it's clear that botting has become a detriment to the game. More than 1/3rd of 0.0 is being locked up in sov by alliances that are profiting in real money off the destruction of the game economy, the inflation of the cost of goods (because they inject too much ISK into the market) and the deflation of the price of minerals.
Now, this said, I have nothing against Russian players in EVE. I've played with many of them, fought with and against many of them. But it is very clear WHERE the bots are running and who is doing it. Now is the time for honest players within those alliances from Etherium Reach down to Omist to turn in the rats. File petitions reporting those within your corps and alliances who are running these operations. If anyone were doing this in my corp or alliance, you bet your ass I'd be the first to blow the whistle.
Again to CCP: Games are over. It's time to take this seriously. You need to investigate and ban these people. You need to add tools to the UI to make it easier to capture and submit reports of bots to the GM's (I'm thinking a "Report Macro/Bot" option in the UI which captures from the logs information specific to identifying bots). You need to DEDICATE GM's to all time zones to handle these reports.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.15 17:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Assegai Developments
Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 14/02/2011 15:04:40
What will CCP do? Nothing. Why won't CCP do anything? Greed. They make more money off the bots than they do the non bots. Bot accounts are paid for in ISK for plex codes. A regular subscription nets CCP $15/month (USD). An account paid for by plex nets them $17.50/month (USD). CCP, is an extra $2.50 worth a ruined economy and ****ed off players? It is no accident that serious efforts by CCP against bots (think "Unholy Rage") ENDED when the plex system was put into the game and GTC prices were raised to a premium (the discontinuation of the old 30 and 90 day codes).
wrong jack. subscriptions can get MUCH cheaper. for example, a 6 month membership i think is 75 US$, or roughly 12 US$ a month. if you go yearly i think it brings it more or less to 10 US$ a month. that means plex buying almost DOUBLES their income in comparison to the best subscription choice (and 50 % increase in comparison to some of the worst, 3 month)
Excellent point. I didn't even think of that as I assumed most people subscribed monthly (as I do). As a policy, and CCP than thank SOE for this, I will not pay for more than a monthly subscription at a time so I don't end up ripped off for a year of game time (as SOE did to me) because of an unwanted game change (NGE) that leaves me with no desire to continue to play.
So, with the bots consuming PLEX, which is the MOST EXPENSIVE means of subscribing to EVE, CCP has an economic interest in favoring them over us.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.15 18:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Whyumadtho
Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions.
Anyone got a link to this promised info?
I read the devblog and it had no 'info'.
You can't report what doesn't exist.
CCP's response to EVE24's very thorough documentation of XDeath/Solar macros was a 24 hour ban of the macro accounts.
I don't think that's taking this problem seriously by even the least serious person's standards.
The investigation in that article shows that the only reason why CCP isn't crushing this problem is because they are too lazy to. After all, the RMT store that will come with Incarna and "Twilight Online: Emo Teen Vampires and the Teen girls (and their middle aged mothers) who love them" will (they think) bring in money, whilst improving our existing game won't.
Remember the Dev who said (in the infamous "get back to us in 18 months" post) that their data doesn't show that polish and bug fixing gets them subscribers?
All it would take is a simple DB query checking for characters that have been logged on far longer than the average (such as 20 hours or more) that has received an extraordinary amount in bounties or looted alloys, then assign GM's to investigate.
There is zero evidence that CCP is doing any of that. Zero.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.15 18:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: yani dumyat The phrase 'CCP won't do anything about the bots because of all the accounts they pay for' has become something of a mantra in these bot threads, it is however complete rubbish.
Botters pay for their accounts by buying plex with isk, they do not bring a single cent, penny or any other useful attribute to the game, they are leeches and parasites, nothing more.
True, the PLEX market is seeded by non botters. The sick part of all this is that the botters create inflation (making end products more expensive due to their massive ISK injections) and depress the value of things we might sell (such as minerals) because that is what they are flooding the market with which helps DRIVE THE DEMAND FOR CASH FOR ISK to begin with!
In other words, the botters hurts legitimate players twice.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.15 18:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: yani dumyat
CCP DO NOT MAKE A SINGLE PENNY OFF THE BOTS, PLEASE CAN WE KNOCK THIS MYTH ON THE HEAD!
Yes they do. Bots drive DEMAND for PLEX, which stimulates supply. If the bots were eradicated the PLEX market would collapse in value. Before bots got really out of hand PLEX items were cheaper on the market (selling for under 300M), whilst now they seem to have hit a 320-340M ISK floor, supported by botter demand.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.16 03:39:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:43:17 Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:42:01
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX. Hm... Buy it illegitimately and get banned or Buy it legally from CCP
Who the hell is CCP banning?
Right now there is absolutely NO RISK involved in massively making ISK by botting, nor honestly in purchasing ISK. Who the hell is CCP permabanning? That's right, NO ONE, not even people caught red handed as running bots, with irrefutable proof, banned 24 hours then back botting again!
Really, if I were going to buy ISK right now, I'd use a trial account, a disposable gift card VISA and get it from Mother Russia. It's a better value than purchasing PLEX, you'll get about 40% more ISK per dollar. Then use some sort of contract "scam" to transfer the ISK to your main. That's what the farmers are doing. This is foolproof and CCP cant' (nor won't) do a damn thing about it.
Of course, I'd not do any of that, I'm too honest, but it does sort of illustrate the problem.
CCP doesn't give a flying crap about buying ISK nor it's effect on the game, or they never would have introduced PLEX. Instead, they have decided to enter the market themselves by creating PLEX, which is the perfect catalyst for botters which itself exploits the real players. CCP doesn't' care about that, they just want a piece of the action. People who buy PLEX items and sell them for ISK are buying from the SAME SOURCE as those who buy directly from the illicit sites. The only difference is CCP is the middle man, consider them the "Chribba" in this transaction. The extra expense in doing it "honestly" via PLEX purchase from CCP is their profit.
Which is why I recommend if you are going to buy ISK, go buy ISK, forget the PLEX. Buying it from CCP is the biggest scam there is, you get less and risk nothing more. And besides, if we cut out the PLEX middle man and CCP ceases to pocket extra money from it they might get ****ed off enough to actually engage in "Unholy RAGE" again and actually go after botters.
Which would end up making the game better.
What I'd do if I were CCP: Permaban and disband bot alliances. Make it clear that it's the responsibility of alliances to NOT permit bot operations under their tags. Permaban ISK buyers.
Kill the supply AND demand.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.16 11:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Katarina reid if all u get is a slap on the wrists and only on the bot account. why not join them? atleast till you get your first couple of warnings. off to sort my 2nd pc and a vpn.
I hate to say it but mass civil disobedience like that might be the only thing that can force their hand. They clearly aren't listening to us and intend to keep shouting LALALALA!!!!! when it gets pointed out to them where and who the most egregious botters are.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.16 12:49:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 12:55:16 Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 12:54:17
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 16/02/2011 11:42:48
Originally by: Captain Mung Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire
If the punishment for encouraging others to break the EULA is as unlikely and as trivial as it is for actually breaking the EULA, then why should we care?
I'd be more impressed if CCP actually ENFORCED this EULA thing. Why not start in the Bot Regions? Whole alliances should be disappearing after downtime if this EULA meant anything. If CCP want us to respect their EULA as anything more than a paper tiger and an excuse to delete stuff they don't want people to know they should start actually enforcing it.
The lid isn't going to stay on this much longer. We got CCP's deliberate ignoring of the Dominion lag issues into the press when they nominated themselves for an award they didn't deserve and the bot story will get out as well.
The bot/RMT issue is actually bigger and even more potentially destructive to EVE than the lag issues because it cuts at the heart of this game's credibility. If one group (the botters) are being allowed to flout the rules because:
1. CCP can't be bothered to deal with it (check back in 18 months) 2. CCP doesn't care because it stimulates the PLEX market which nets them extra cash
If this continues this game AND CCP lose all credibility with potential players.
Why bother with it and the lure of the sandbox economy if a bunch of Russian alliance botters are going to reduce the value of what you do to nothing? How long are you going to keep buying expensive ships when you know that built into the price of that ship is inflation caused by the same botters? Why bother mining or even running high end plex's for stuff to sell when cut off the TOP of the asking price you can get is the glut of minerals/items dumped on the market by the SAME botters? Why buy GTC's to sell PLEX for ISK when it's a crappy value? Especially when you consider that it's going to feed the robots to buy ISK that is of decreasing value?
I also can't stand the hypocrisy. Buying ISK for cash is either good, bad, or neutral. Who is doing the buying and selling is irrelevant.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.16 17:30:00 -
[13]
I'm beginning to wonder if we're poking at the edges of a scandal that could make T20 look tame? What if CCP employees are engaging in botting or even creating ISK for RMT?
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.17 15:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sirius Cassiopeiae ok... and... *if* they were all permabanned... how did that help us in long run? we are at the same place where we would be without that "Unholy rage".
that kind of PR things dont work... if botting is problem, then its problem allways... and CCP need to work on it all the time and implement things that will prevent it... and not only when PR says so... and only then...
Unholy Rage DID work.
If you monitor the seller sites (I do out of curiosity) the cost of ISK for real money skyrocketed after the mass bannings of botters. Before UR the cost of ISK from the RMT sites was a lot cheaper than selling GTC's. After it, they had no price advantage over GTC.
That situation persisted for several months. The botters probably were reluctant to commit to setting things up again because they assumed they'd be looking at getting caught in UR II, UR III, etc. They got back in when it became clear that UR was a one time deal and NOT the establishment of a new, permanent operation against bots and RMT.
At the same time, CCP got rid of the old system of 30 and 90 day GTC's which had to be transacted manually in favor of a 60 day PLEX which could be bought and sold through market orders. The new system raised the prices of GTC's to a premium over a regular subscription. Remember that 30 day codes used to cost $15 and 90 day codes $45, the new 60 day codes cost $35 which is almost as much as the old 90 day codes but gives 1/3rd less game time.
So what happened was a combination of CCP ceasing any serious efforts to continue Unholy Rage AND the introduction of a system that is a macro RMT'ers dream: the ability to fund the ENTIRE OPERATION on nothing but in game currency they themselves are mass producing, AND to be able to transact it nearly anonymously. They could do the same thing in the old system but it would have required some level of interaction directly with real players, and only when sellers were online. Now they can transact game time anonymously, 23 hours a day.
Is there any question, then as to WHY the proliferation of bots and RMT'ing of ISK has boomed to unprecedented levels in this environment? The cost of ISK on the RMT sites now is back down to (or below) the levels prior to UR, to the point that buying ISK itself then buying a PLEX in game with it is cheaper than the cost of an actual subscription to the game, by about 30-40%.
I put the blame here COMPLETELY on CCP, for failing to sustain UR, AND for implementing the PLEX system without thought to how it would make setting up bot/RMT operations in this game so stupidly easy that we'd end up with more botters and sellers THAN EVER BEFORE? It's clearly a case of the greed of marketing overcoming the objections of designers, that is, if anyone realized what kind of monster they were introducing in the first place.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.17 15:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: yani dumyat
Originally by: Morgen Truffaud Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39 One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month.
Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Players who would have bought plex with cash (ie the people paying the ú15 a month for the botters account) are the ones who give money to CCP.
Go read the last couple of pages of this thread if you don't understand how botters cause CCP financial loss.
If this were true the PLEX market would die for lack of supply, and they'd be selling for crazy prices on the market when anyone actually bothered to purchase some for sale. The bots are driving demand for PLEX on the market, which naturally stimulates supply.
The bots need to operate via the ISK they farm, which they use to buy a PLEX, then use the rest of their botted ISK to sell on the market. If they were unable to do so, their real costs would rise and so would the price of illicit ISK.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.17 16:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:55:44
Originally by: yani dumyat Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales.
Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value.
IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more?
Which is why, I feel, that Unholy Rage wasn't followed up with UR II, UR III, UR IV, etc. Someone realized the PLEX system had achieved it's goal of making sure CCP get's "it's cut" of the botters RMT operations and decided to leave it that way.
How long has this thread been up? What has CCP said substantively about botters or their plans to do anything about them?
Not one damn thing.
EVE24 does what any GM could do in minutes, discover that there are tons of "players" ratting for 23 hours a DAY, a feat humanely impossible, located within two alliances, and what does CCP do?
Again, not a damn thing. (well they banned them for 24 hours, oooh that will hurt)
Why do they keep relegating discussion of this to the ghetto? Because they want it to die, they HOPE that it dies. PLEX sales are booming thanks to the hungry bots, which is helping CCP's bottom line. They could care less if it affects us negatively so long as it's positive to their bank accounts.
As I've said before, CCP can only demonstrate their seriousness and commitment to ridding this game of bots and illicit RMT by IMMEDIATELY bringing back the Unholy Rage campaign, as well as suspending the availability of PLEX conversion during it (so the market drains and the botters can't immediately replace their losses).
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.17 16:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27
If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?
Ban the botters. The drone region nerfs are clearly aimed at the Russian bot alliances, but won't do anything in the end except punish honest players and make the area even more inhospitable to anyone who isn't a bot.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.17 18:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cheekything I dont think banning botters will work, yes they make a massive amount of isk, however I think all that will happen is they will just improve their AI to make them more random.
I do think that CCP should just make the places where botters are used less appealing for the botter and more appealing for a player who is sitting at his desk, things that require some imagination or intuition, things that bots just cannot do (or at least easily).
And RMT is evil :/
Doesn't matter how "random" they make the behavior, they will always stick out like a sore thumb if CCP would bother to look. As the EN24 article stated, these guys are literally on from after downtime to next downtime. Literally 23/7. No real player could do that.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.18 16:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Skareon Edited by: Skareon on 18/02/2011 13:23:11 Each bot can garner a net total of 30 bill per month easily.
The question is... is CCP for or against such "easy money"?
They need to make a clear stance either for or against such botting.
I'm cool with whatever response they give on the matter, for I am sure that whatever decision they make it is for the great good of EVE.
note: personally I am strongly against botting and I strongly believe all people caught botting should have their accounts (and all associated accounts) deleted immediately.
Removed conversation that encouraged people to purchase ISK from 3rd party sellers - Adida
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.18 19:26:00 -
[20]
Originally by: sarah mcjimmy How about making the Alliance responsible? Eg, negative corp wallets etc. I'm sure that would have quite the effect on allowing renters in a system.
According to the EN24 report it's not the drone renters who are the botters. It's the RENTOR alliances (XDeath, Solar, RA, etc).
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.21 12:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: sarah mcjimmy
Originally by: Jack Gilligan According to the EN24 report it's not the drone renters who are the botters. It's the RENTOR alliances (XDeath, Solar, RA, etc).
What I mean is to extend the punishment at present (engage in RMT with dirty ISK and face negative balances) and taking it to a higher level. Whether it be the corporation or alliance directly.
I completely agree.
And, btw, it's funny how CCP sends people into this thread to delete stuff they don't like (such as noting the disparity in the cost of buying isk, go look it up) but NOT ONE FREAKING DEV will respond to anything in this thread.
I'm beginning to believe the only way we'll get CCP's ass on this problem is to unsubscribe in mass numbers.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.21 21:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alexi Komanov I wish CCP would just tighten their collective belts and remove all the bots. Yes I know it's not that easy, yes I know the bots will be back but at least it would give us a breather. Unfortunately, thats not going to happen, CCP just loves money too much and if they remove all the bots thats at least half of their subscriptions down the drain, leaving us back at pre-trinity levels of subscribers.
EVE is going to be choked out by bots, as playing the game becomes dependent on using a bot. That is when EVE will die, sure there will still be people playing but they will be 80% bots and CCP will still be making money so they just wont give a damn. EVE will be dead for the rest of us, to bad CCP won't care.
CCP could do one thing that wouldn't involve even having to investigate reports of botters to cut their numbers drastically.
End the PLEX system. Get rid of it. Replace it with an actual RMT store to buy, yes, game time, and yes, ISK, along with Incarna "dress up barbie" items they clearly plan to introduce. Take the PLEX item out of the game COMPLETELY, awarding equivalent store points to everyone holding them at the time of removal.
The bot problem exploded with the introduction of PLEX, which means the botters don't even have to leave the game to use their ill gotten ISK to fuel their operation. The PLEX item buyable from the in game market makes sustaining and growing a bot operation FAR too easy.
Not to mention, purchasing PLEX for ISK is a ripoff. Set the cost of ISK at such a level that it floats with the economy (ie, your $35 nets you a variable level of ISK, indexed to the in game economy).
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 00:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Famble After reading some of this thread I decided to Google "eve bots". The results were quick and the first link landed me on a very professional site with a well described botting program. Reading it's features was extremely impressive and I won't lie... tempting. Anyway, I couldn't ever bring myself to do it for a lot of reasons but what I found most surprising was how quickly I just went from being breifly tempted to simply not wanting to play anymore.
I may not be very active in the community and certainly not in the know about current events but in 90 seconds of independent research I am now patently convinced that botting is definitely NOT a good thing for Eve!
I truly hope I'm around when they fix this problem :(
Disgusting isn't it? There are seemingly as many sites selling bots as there are ISK. And a 10 minute search on the subject shows you that bots exist that can run multiple clients on a single PC, can mine, rat, move loot to POSs or stations, that can properly chain belts, you name it, there is a bot that will automate it.
What I don't understand is that no action is taken against them. To work like they do they HAVE to sniff the client. Blizzard successfully sued WoWGlider, the most popular WoW bot into oblivion. Or is it that CCP is willing to tolerate bots because the demand for PLEXs stimulates supply? As I've said, the worst thing you can do as a player right now if you oppose bots is to buy PLEX. You are victimizing yourself twice, first your PLEX is getting you botted ISK, and the stuff you buy with that ISK is inflated in price because of the supply of ISK dumped on the market by the bots.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 14:38:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 14:39:16
Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative?
Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny?
CCP doesn't want to stamp out bots, obviously. They like the fact they are getting extra money from PLEX purchases and they don't want that gravy train to stop.
Well, it wouldn't stop, but without the botters there would be less demand for PLEX items which would mean lower prices for them on the market and thus, less incentive for people to buy them from CCP to convert to ISK. This is why "Unholy Rage" was never repeated after they realized the effect botters would have on the PLEX market and their revenues.
They need all that money after all to keep developing DUST and Twilight Online.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 15:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: General Windypops
Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players.
I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready.
Remember how they treated K--- over T20?
That's why the blackout. They are looking for scapegoats to ban rather than dealing with the problem. They probably have "EULA lawyers" looking for the clause to accuse your reporter of "OMG HAX!" in collecting the data. CCP has a history of reacting to being publicly embarrassed by punishing the whistleblower. CCP has a history and a habit of punishing the messenger.
The article on EN24 shows how easy it is to find, identify, and collect evidence on bots, especially if you were a GM and didn't have to go through all the bother of travel, being visible in local, etc that an ordinary player has to, and exposes the fact that they clearly DO NOT do this is due to pure laziness and lack of will to do anything. Add to it the fact that the reported bots got only 24 hour bans as the final clincher that CCP does not take this seriously at all, it proves their statements to the contrary to be lies.
They take ISK sellers seriously (supposedly) while they don't bother at all with the source, ie, how all that ISK is generated. If they attacked the bots, which would limit the supply, the cost of ISK would rise and be more in line with PLEX, which would actually SOLVE THE PROBLEM of people wanting to buy ISK! I can't understand why they can't see this.
Well, I can, actually, I think we are making the mistake of assuming that CCP actually wishes to STOP RMT in ISK and the bots that generate it. If you don't look at this issue from that point of view and instead look at it from what makes CCP the most money you will understand that they have no incentive to stop it.
CCP, it's WAY past time for you to make a definitive statement and back it with decisive action. Sending your mods in here to sabotage our discussion is inappropriate and only makes us angrier.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 15:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Angel of Night
Originally by: General Windypops
Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players.
I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready.
I surely hope that this 'cooling off' period isn't just coverup for 'we need more time to sweep this entire thing under the rug'.
Btw remember incarna oh that lovely incarna and holy, even godly station walking. What bots? You can walk cant you see! Who cares about few bots? We already banned them for 1-3 days - just let it go and run around in your quarters like we want you to.
Just wait until WIS/Incarna adds some activity that you can generate ISK from and bots are made to automate THAT... This will happen, of course, it's inevitable.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 15:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Butzewutze What i dont get is why CCP only gives a timeban for 3 days if they found a macrouser. They should be banned and the ip monitored. At least thats what i would do. WAKE UP CCP!
Not even a 3 day ban. 24 hours.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 15:37:00 -
[28]
Compile all the evidence, GM correspondence, etc, and send it to every gaming news site you can find.
I guess we can only get action from CCP when we cause them to not win some award they nominate themselves for I guess.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 15:47:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 15:50:32
Originally by: lost marble
During unholy rage PLEX prices dropped to about 250 mill or less, that's ú35 for 500 mill isk. What that shows us is that without bots the free market can not sustain a high plex price, it certainly can't compete with RMT sites who will sell you a billion isk for the same ú35.
All CCP need to do is set minimum and maximum buy and sell prices in the form of NPC buy and sell orders, this would guarantee value for people wanting to buy isk and if combined with an anti botter initiative would drive RMT prices up so that there's not point in using them any more.
Apart from the occasional player who might be forced to pay for their account with RL money instead of ISK I really see no downside to doing this and on the upside we get rid of bots and CCP get to increase their revenue by owning the entire RMT market.
If you kill off RMT and give permabans to players caught using bots then investment in bots crumbles. What's not to like?
That's the point I've been trying to make but it keeps getting deleted, as I suspect yours will, CCP is insane about wanting to suppress anyone pointing out the fact that PLEX for ISK is, in fact a poor value, AND THE BOTS ARE THE CAUSE OF IT!
Yes, PLEX as it is now can't continue. It needs to be yanked completely and replaced with an outright cash shop, OR, as you suggest, it needs to be supported by NPC orders to keep it at a level where buying ISK from the botters is not a viable option.
Not to mention, price supports for PLEX would make botting more expensive.
A win win. I don't see CCP having the wisdom to see this though, the only CCP people reading this thread are the moderators.
The chief argument against this is that it amounts to interference in the "free market". The market already isn't free. It's being distorted by the botters and the RMT'ers. Failure to take action will cause this distortion to only increase over time, and eventually, cause so much disruption that people stop playing because they can't compete with the bots, keep up with the ever increasing prices for stuff, and they can't afford to buy PLEX's.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 16:11:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 16:12:07
Originally by: lost marble
I personally think PLEX is a great idea that's been handled badly, it was meant to combat RMT but by letting bots run rampant it has fuelled them instead. Used properly I see no reason why PLEX shouldn't be able to undercut illegal ISK sites.
CCP's counter argument will be that if PLEX gave you 1B for $35 that it would distort the economy. That is where it's going to have to START at to kill the bots/sellers, it doesn't have to STAY there. The NPC orders should be adjusted over time.
Reality, however, regardless of what CCP thinks is that a value for ISK has already been set. As things are now it's out of their control. But it doesn't HAVE to be.
Adding NPC buy/sell orders would literally give CCP a switch they can adjust to harm bots and ISK sellers when they increase in activity: simply increase the buy orders fro PLEX on the markets so the 3rd party sellers HAVE NO MARKET.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 19:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Othran
Its totally irrelevant in terms of bots. PLEX is "paid for" within a day or two of macro ratting.
Edit - and before you muddy the water more (as that's what you're here for) it wouldn't matter if you increased the cost of PLEX by a factor of ten, bots could still afford it and make some isk for their main/main's alliance. Players couldn't. Bots could, but you know that.
You are correct. The EN24 story estimated that the botters up in the Russian Bot Region Motherland were making between 800M-1B a day. I think that's pretty conservative, but it's a good number for sake of argument.
A PLEX costs between 330 and 350M. Let's split the difference and call it 340M. This means a bot pays for it's monthly game time in the first 8-9 hours it runs. Again, a very conservative estimate. At the low end figure, a bot running 23/7 would make 5.6B A WEEK, which means at 340M*12, or a little over 4B ISK, a bot earns A WHOLE YEAR of game time worth of PLEXS the first week.
And that's just A SINGLE BOT in the crappiest space in all of 0.0, plus most of them are running more than one, as sophisticated macros allow for multiple bots to run on a single PC.
So, yeah, you could TRIPLE the price of PLEX items and it wouldn't really discourage the bots. What increasing PLEX prices COULD do though is remove a lot of the incentive from botting, that being the demand for bought ISK. While I am sure some of the alliance level bots are being run to replace moon income to buy supercap fleets, I think that is the exception. No, most of that ISK is going up for sale on 3rd party sites.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.22 20:09:00 -
[32]
Originally by: lost marble Keeping the PLEX price up while simultaneously banning botters has two effects, it puts RMT sites out of business and it reduces the demand for bots by players.
If neither RMT nor players are greatly interested in buying bots then it removes the majority of incentive to write the bot programmes, at the very least it cuts off their funding and drives out the professional bot writers.
The solutions to bots needs to be both technical and financial.
Agree completely. No one thing (other than possibly removing PLEX entirely) will kill the bots. They need to be hit from all fronts simultaneously: Bans of toons that "play" 23/7 for days at a time, bans of alliances where this occurs in an excessive number, manipulation of the price of PLEX so that RMT isk sellers can't compete, ALL of it at the same time.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.23 15:03:00 -
[33]
Originally by: bustergonads
Originally by: sableye
if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone,
By only handing out three day bans they more or less have.
Not 3 day bans, 1 day bans.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.23 16:15:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Fengbao Jiuyue
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Originally by: bustergonads
Originally by: sableye
if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone,
By only handing out three day bans they more or less have.
Not 3 day bans, 1 day bans.
Don't see how this benefits CCP If we all start paying the innerspace guys with our 20$ and pay for Eve with isk.
Irony: You are a lot more likely to be banned for making a statement like that than you would if you ran 10 bots and had people petition you.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division
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Posted - 2011.02.24 15:03:00 -
[35]
Set a hard cap on noobcorp membership, once your account is 90 days old no toon can remain in one. If you don't leave it, on day 91 the game makes a 1 man player corp named for your character. If you leave a player corp after 90 days and don't apply to another player corp it does the same thing, drops you into your own player corp named after your character.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division
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Posted - 2011.02.24 18:25:00 -
[36]
Bots should be an exception in anyone's NBSI policy...
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.01 15:45:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05
Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals.
CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values.
Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it?
I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week.
CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.01 15:53:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Soi Mala You guys should find this hilarious...
For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc.
One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, particularly the ratting systems, where he afk cloaks most of the day, every day. If he happened to be around while targets were out, he'd probe and blackops bridge for us etc. You might argue about the lameness of these tactics etc but that is beside the point. A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot.
Really? These accounts that had been sat perfectly inactive? Not killed rats, not mined, not done anything? What exactly were they macroing? He was asked to explain why he was logged in all the time, as this was highly suspicious, as opposed to just logging in and probing when he needed to. Apparently this is behavior exhibited by RMTers.
He appealed and luckily got the bans lifted, but the whole thing caused megalols amongst the corp. Perhaps the funniest thing in my eyes, wasn't the lack of reasoning, but the fact that it was only a 3 day ban... Seriously, that is supposed to stop these botters? Hardly the kind of punishment i'd class as "unholy rage".
More like "Operation Unholy SLAP on the Hand".
Give CCP credit. At least they've FINALLY zoned in on the clue that staying logged in practically every second the server is up is suspicious and probably means a bot.
But they've yet to make the connection and link that clue with the "oh, and also RATS continually for 20+ hours" clue which should, oh, 99.999999999998% of the time indicate a genuine bot. Come on, CCP, it's not that hard, form a study group, have some management meetings and you MAY put 2+2 together and get 4 in under 18 months.
You can do it!
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.01 16:01:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 16:01:47 Accidental double post...
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:07:00 -
[40]
Thank you for the reply, but I will believe it when I see something.
The fact that bots are allowed to proliferate out there with impunity and no consequence to the alliances who clearly allow them is a travesty.
As for a metric of success, there is none better to measure it by than the cost of illicit ISK. If it starts going up, then you guys are having an effect on the farmers. If it doesn't, you aren't.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.01 20:06:00 -
[41]
Agree with all your ideas. If CCP were serious, they could make an impact on this problem right now by just doing some good GM work investigating petitions, AND actual policing the areas where botting is most reported. A GM can watch botters while being invisible in local. Players can't do that.
Tools do need to be built to make gathering information for the "bot buster" GM teams to act on easier, and it really is no more complicated than compiling reports on accounts logged in FAR longer each day than the average metric that are engaged in a single activity beyond human endurance.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.01 20:43:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Everard Headbutt
Originally by: CCP Adida Removed conversations and links on how to bot.
Nice to see CCP can still find time to censor posts on this forum, and yet for the last 5+ years do **** all about the botters....
Yeah, seriously, could the mods just get the F--- OUT of this thread now? They keep insisting that all discussion of the bot scourge take place here then do everything they can do to impede it. The edits and deletions aren't HELPING they are only making us angrier at CCP's lack of any constructive action against this problem.
Indeed, it would take less effort than the mods are putting into squelching this thread than it would to task some GM's to investigate the 23/7 ratters which HAVE to be bots which would make any such moderation unnecessary as this thread would be full of people congratulating CCP on at least putting forth a credible effort!
Less mods. More GM's investigating bots.
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Jack Gilligan
1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.03.02 15:33:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 02/03/2011 15:35:58
Quote: I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs.
Why is this being withheld for Fanfest? This problem has been at crisis proportions for months now and the vast majority of us, as in, we, your customers, as in we who are paying you, aren't GOING to fanfest.
I agree with you doing a nice presentation about it there, but I don't think that is appropriate to wait for it or withhold it until then.
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Jack Gilligan
Cerberus Heavy Logistics
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:53:00 -
[44]
So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
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Jack Gilligan
Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.05 22:37:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Xylengra
Originally by: CCP Sreegs As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response.
Wow... Just wow.
Yeah, the arrogance and hubris is quite mind numbing isn't it? Of course, after tomorrow's massive ninja chop to the balls nerf of 0.0 isk making for the majority of the average honest players, I'm about to the point of endorsing that we ALL start botting. I won't do that of course, the logical move is to quit doing business with a company that has so little regard for the wishes of those of us who merely give them money to eat, pay the mortgage, send the kids to college, etc...
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Jack Gilligan
Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.06 00:55:00 -
[46]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Originally by: Xylengra
Originally by: CCP Sreegs As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response.
Wow... Just wow.
Yeah, the arrogance and hubris is quite mind numbing isn't it? Of course, after tomorrow's massive ninja chop to the balls nerf of 0.0 isk making for the majority of the average honest players, I'm about to the point of endorsing that we ALL start botting. I won't do that of course, the logical move is to quit doing business with a company that has so little regard for the wishes of those of us who merely give them money to eat, pay the mortgage, send the kids to college, etc...
I don't really see what the problem is with stating that if you intend to have a dialogue it's a little easier for me to respond to you when you're referring to the subject matter at hand (botting, which I CAN respond to) rather than wrapping a bit about botting around a great deal of rage and opinion that is not on topic. If that comes off as arrogant to you than I certainly apologize.
The issues being discussed cannot be separated.
They are all part of the SAME problem.
I'm sorry if I come across as harsh. I simply don't have a good history with MMO Devs, given that I come from Pre-screwed up Star Wars Galaxies. I tend to view all of you with suspicion. It's not easy for me to trust your motives, it's not personal.
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